利用区块链技术来提高整个社会的生产力,是在未来几年中非常值得期待的事情。在这样一个所有的秩序都是百废待兴的时代,需要有相应的、新的机制体制诞生。
The use of block chain technology to increase the productivity of society as a whole is much to be expected in the coming years. At a time when all of this order is in a state of discomfort, there is a need for a corresponding new institutional architecture.
日前,DRC创始人林扬邀NUChain核聚链创始人黄连金进行深度访谈,与我们分享他们在区块链行业标准和规范领域的真知灼见。
Earlier, the founder of the DRC, Lin Yang, invited the founder of NU Chain's nuclear clustering chain, Huang Liqin, for an in-depth interview to share with us their insights in the field of standards and norms in the sector of the block chain.
DRC金融科技资讯
DRC Financial Science and Technology Information
访谈实录整理版
Interview Documented version
高端对话:DRC创始人林扬 & 核聚链创始人黄连金
Dialogue:Selina, Founder of DRC & Ken Huang, Founder of NUChain
林扬:
大家好,今天非常有幸邀请到核聚链创始人黄连金黄总。
Hello, everyone. It is a great honour to invite the founder of the nuclear fusion chain, Mr. Wong.
Hello, everyone. Today it is our great pleasure to have Ken Huang ,the founder of NUChain as our guest.
是什么原因让你离开你所熟悉的传统的领域,all in区块链?
What's the reason why you're out of your traditional field, all in block chains?
We also want to know what motivated you to leave the traditional area that you were familiar, and all in blockchain.
在这个过程当中,你的定位和你未来的发展的动向是怎么样的?
What's your position and the direction of your future development in this process?
How did you position yourself and the direction of your future development in this process?
黄连金:
我一直认为我自己应该去创业去做一些事情。
I always thought I should start my own business and do something.
Yes,actually I have always thought I should start a business.
我认为区块链更多的需求是在于初创公司。
Also the demand for the application of blockchain technology is higher among thestart-ups. 在华为我所在的地位只会帮助大领导、大公司,不会帮助小公司。 /strang' By contrast, my previous experiences can only help the top management in bigcompanies such as Huawei rather than the small enterprises. 因为流程太多,他的流程都是中心化的,华为就是以流程为驱动的,我们用的都是IBM流程。 There are too many processes and the processes themselves arecentralized. Actually Huawei is process-driven. We all use the IBM process. 林扬: 很重的中心化。这也是我All IN区块链的其中一个原因,去中心化降低了中间成本,提高了整个社会的生产力, This is one of the reasons for my All IN block chain, which reduces intermediate costs and increases the productivity of society as a whole. I agree, and that's also one of the reasons I came out (of Big Four) to all inblockchain. Decentralization will greatly improve the productivity of the wholesociety in the future we very much look forward to. 这是我们非常期待的未来世界,就是在这样一个新的经济体里面,所有的秩序都是百废待兴的。我们希望在新的机制体到来的时候,也希望能树立起相应的标准和规范。 This is the future world we're looking forward to, and in this new economy, all order is in order. We want to set standards and norms when the new mechanism comes. We welcome reformations and hope a new ecosystem will be set up with new standards. 黄连金:
这其中最难的点就是怎样把固态的资产真正的唯一的真实地反映在上面。
The most difficult part of this is how the only true true reflection of a solid asset is reflected on it.
The toughest is making unique, authentic reflections of the solid, fixed assets ofthe real world.
现在区块链的世界是DIGITAL、虚拟的。一旦上链以后,能够保证数据可溯源、不可篡改。
We want to ensure that assets are traceableand tamperproof via the tokenized data on the top once they are tokenized.
但是上链以前的数据的真假并不好确定,很难解决,我在做的就是要啃这个硬骨头。
But the truth about the data before the upper chain is not certain. It's hard to figure it out. What I'm doing is eating this bone.
But it remains a problem how to tell if the data to be tokenized is authentic andthat’s what NUChain of which I’m the founder are working on.
我们的专注点是从协议层去解决,在这里面去定义身份、价值,在定义以后,从协议上去查询、transfer,
Our focus is to address it in theprotocol layer, setting up a network protocol that can define, query andtransfer the identity and value. 帮助这些产品上链,所以我们要设计芯片,能够把协议写到传感器里面,这个能够解决什么问题? "Strong" helps with the chaining of these products, so we're going to design a chip that can write the protocol into the sensor. What can this solve? To help asset tokenization, we designed akind of chips that store our protocols and can be installed in the sensors. Whatproblem can it solve? 比如说有些厂家需要排污水,监管部门就需要给他们安装传感器。这个传感器目前来说,它可以造假,可以在传数据传输过程中把它截获、修改。 For example, some plants need sewage and regulators need to install sensors. For the time being, this sensor can be faked, intercepted and modified during transmission of data. For example, some factories discharge sewage and the authorities make them installthis sensor. This sensor for now can falsify data through interception or theftin the transmission process. 在这种情况下怎么样去优化,这在协议层上很重要。 how to optimize in this situation is important on the protocol level. In this case it is crucial how we make use of the protocol to get the real data. 林扬: 我们最近正在对一系列市场上的专注在资产上链的项目尽调,并且发出“林扬资产上链十问”,召集专家讨论,这十问里面就包括对资产的唯一性、真实性、确权的问题,如何确权,价值的评估。 那未来这些问题怎么解决呢?上链的数据怎么保证跟实体的资产的准确映射? How do you solve these problems in the future? How do the data on the upper chain guarantee an accurate mapping of the entity's assets? Then how do we solve these problems? How canwe ensure that the assets and entities are truly related? 黄连金: 这里有些需要在协议上解决,有些协议上还很难。怎么定义价值,不是由一方来决定的,这是一个共识的过程。 There are agreements that need to be resolved here, and there are agreements that are difficult. It is a consensus process not for one party to decide how to define values. Yeah, the problem can only be partlysolved through the protocol. There has to be a consensus on how to define andassess the value. 对于确权,到底是属于谁的?确权和身份又不一样,身份是一个唯一性。这个很好,你们的十问我倒想看看。 Who does the strong belong to for sure? The truth and identity are different, and identity is unique. That's good. You asked me to look at it. And the ownership determination you mentioned is different from defining identity asidentity is unique. This is a good question and I’d like to see the questionstoo. 林扬: 资产上链的项目,实际上第一公里和最后一公里是最难解决的问题,谁能确保在实体资产的真实、准确、有效的前提下上链? In fact, the first and last kilometre of an asset uplink project is the most difficult to solve, and who can ensure that the chain is made in the true, accurate and effective condition of the entity's assets? Asset tokenization in fact is the very first and the last problem to solve. The dataabout the tangible assets must be authentic and accurate. 所谓的不可篡改是数据上链之后的不可篡改,如果垃圾数据上链也不可篡改那是个灾难。 The tamperproof we say should be addressed in the next step of tokenization as it’dbe a disaster if garbage data is tokenized and tamperproof. 在每个环节,包括技术环节和前端数字资产上链的环节,都打通了以后,应用场景才可以使用,才可以产生使用价值。 will be used only after each link, including the technical link and the upper chain of the front end digital assets, has been completed. will be useful only if the application scene is used. Only after the success of each steps regardless of technical part or data validationand tokenization has been achieved, can this application scenario producesvalue. 黄连金: 我非常赞同,很多人说区块链性能可能是很重要的问题。 I very much agree that a lot of people say that block chain performance may be an important issue. Can not agree more. People say performancemay be a very important issue to block chain technology. 但是有些可能是低频、中频的,比如说每秒钟几百个TPS交易的用拜占庭容错啊,或者是DPOS, but some may be low-frequency, medium-frequency, e.g. hundreds of TPS transactions per second with Byzantine tolerance, or DPOS, But some transactions might be in low orintermediate frequency, say, hundreds of TPS transactions per second. Then wecan utilize Byzantine fault tolerance, or DPOS. 真正的问题就是怎样把物理的资产,固态的东西上链,上链就相当于变成液态了,液态以后再气态化,把它细分,作为一种细分的Token, The real question is how to put physical assets, solid things up the chain, the upper chain is a liquid, the liquid is regasated, and it is broken down as a broken Token, . The real problem is how to tokenize the physical products, physical assets, thesetangible things. After being tokenized the assets are like liquefied, then gasified,and then we can further divide the tokens. 把不可分割的实体变成可以分割的。这个是区块链提供的好处。 turns inseparable entities into severable entities. This is the benefit of a block chain. An indivisible tangible thing becomesdivisible. This is the benefit of the blockchain. 但是固态的怎么样把它变成资产非常难, but how the solids turn it into an asset is very difficult, However it is difficult to make atangible thing an intangible asset. 我们现在做的比较通用的协议,基本上能够解决一些相对领域的问题。 What we're doing now is a more generic agreement that basically solves some of the relative problems. The reexit some common protocols and what we are developing is a common protocol thatcan bring answers to the tokenization of tangible asset in certain areas. 但是有些细分领域,比如房地产怎么样上链,需要另外一个协议,我们可以把它分成BNP,轻的协议来指导一些小的物理产品。 Regarding some area segmentations, such as real estate, we may need another protocol. Forexample we can divide it into BNP using some light protocol lite, to guide thetokenization of some small physical product. 林扬: 区块链是一个共建的过程。但是区块链行业的标准和规范到底是什么? The block chain is a co-building process. But what are the standards and norms in the block chain industry? So blockchain is a collaborative building process, but what exactly the standardsand norms of blockchain? 如何来建立?在这样一种崇尚去中心化的生态中,社区应该由中心化监管部门来牵头制定标准规范吗? How can How to establish it in such a kind ofcentralized ecosystem and should there be a centralized regulatory to monitorthe standards of the transactions undergoing in the community. 黄连金: 目前来说让中心化的机构或者政府机构去制定标准还为时过早。 It is too early for For now it is still early to let thecentral regulatory set up this standard. 往往是在社区共识出来之后被政府采纳,这倒是个好事情。 is a good thing. Sometimes a consensus amongst the communitymight eventually be adopted by the Government, which is a good thing. 我们可以去参照一些传统互联网的安全实践。 We can refer to some of the traditional Internet security practices. We can still refer to some cases of thesuccessful practice of traditional internet security. 项目方决定一切就不是去中心化的,但是如果什么都不能决定,也是一个问题, . That the project team are decidingeverything is not centralization while if they can't decide anything wouldstill be a problem. 所以怎么找到一个平衡? So how do we find a balance? So how to balance it ? 第二在设置权限的时候不能光考虑到你的项目方,也要考虑到社区。 Now when you set the permissions it isnot only the project team that we need to take into consideration, but also thecommunity. 所以怎么平衡?现在还是很少有人考虑这些问题。 So how do you balance it? There are few people who think about it. So how can we balance it?Right now ,still very few people are considering theseissues. 林扬: 我们不能不管,但是也不可能像传统的体系,是中心化、集权化的管理, We can't ignore it, but it's not like the traditional system, it's centralized, centralized management, We won’t give total authority to the community but we won’t act as a traditionalcentralized authority either. 我们也在打造这样一个分布式自治的组织,我们会建立多中心的、设立决策委员会、社区投票的方式来达成一些共识,最终会体现在智能合约自动执行上。这其中很重要的是权限设置的问题,DRC真的是秉承了区块链的精神。 We're also building a decentralized self-governing organization, and we're building consensus on how to create multi-centres, decision-making committees, and community voting, which will eventually be reflected in the automatic implementation of smart contracts. What's important here is the issue of competence, which is that the DRC is really in the spirit of the block chain. DRC is also on our way to build this kind of distributed, autonomous regulationswith multiple centers. In DRC consensus are reached by community votes. We arededicated to adhering to the spirit of blockchain. 黄连金: 在智能合约领域里也有一个不可能三角,去中心化,安全、功能。做得越复杂,安全肯定越有问题。 There's an impossible triangle, decentralised, secure, functional in the field of smart contracts. The more complex it is, the more problematic it must be. In intelligence there is also an impossible trinity theory, i.e. centralization,security and function. The more comple, the more problems there must be with security. 要去中心化,对于项目方来说肯定是不安全的。所以怎么样在安全前提下去中心化? The strong is going to centralize. It's certainly not safe for the project. So how do we get centralized in the security context? you want decentralization which almost means the project is not that secure. Howcan you achieve secure decentralization? 林扬: 区块链是一个艺术,创造区块链项目就像创造了一个艺术品。 The block chain is an art, and the creation of the block chain project is like the creation of an art. That's why I see blockchain an artcraft. You create a blockchain project, you get anpiece of art. 黄连金: 现在有些时候项目方管理的时候,会把私钥你一半我一半,然后大家分别都放到保险箱里。 This is the same with the project management. We both hold a half of the private keyand put them in the safe. 林扬: 这个方法是多签名,从密码学的原理可以这么说,很有意思的创新,从密码学来证明有securityproperty,能够有cryptanalysis,专门研究密码学理论能不能经得住黑客的攻击。 The method of strong is multiple signatures, as you can see from cryptography. It's an interesting innovation. It's a cryptography proof that there's a security system, a cryptanalysis, that specializes in the ability of cryptography to withstand hacker attacks. It's like the multiple signatures in management process which proves highly secureagainst hackers’ attacks in cryptography. 黄连金: 数字资产的安全是黑客攻击的一个最大的目标。 The security of The digital assets are the main target of the hackers. 林扬: 数字资产、钱包、交易所。 Yes,the digital assets, digital wallet and exchange platforms 你觉得身份认证是否有必要需要引入到区块链行业呢? Do you think identification needs to be introduced into the block chain industry? But there's a critical issue here - the identity validation. do you think it’snecessary to bring into the blockchain ? 黄连金: 从监管、合规、KYC来说这是必须的,落地应用也是必须的,否则很难说项目有大规模的落地应用,一旦有大规模的落地应用监管肯定要重视, is mandatory for regulation, compliance, KYC, as well as for landing applications, otherwise it is difficult to say that there are large-scale landing applications for the project. It is a must to solve the identityvalidation issue in terms of supervision, compliance and KYC especially formassive application. 再通过零知识证明,就是我可以证明我是我,但不需要知道隐私信息,技术上零知识证明不停在突破, And by proving zero knowledge, I can prove that I'm me, but I don't need to know about privacy. And Zero-Knowledge Proof, that is I can prove my identity without personalinformation leakage, must be studied, improved and applied. That's whereeverybody is heading. 但是李笑来录音出来以后,让很多韭菜意识到了他们被骗了,学聪明,确实要看到落地的项目,以后需要投资方,投资机构要看清,除了投资以外,要看清投后服务,投后服务就是怎么样能够帮助这个项目真正落地应用,真正实现vaule。 But when Lee laughed, he made a lot of pickles realize that they were being lied to, that they were smart, that they really needed to see the landing projects, that they needed investors, that investment agencies needed to see them, and that, in addition to investing, they needed after-investment services, and that after-investment services were how they could help the project actually work and actually achieve vaule. The direction of the whole industry iskind of wrong right now. But after the leaked audio of Xiaolai Li, more peoplerealized that this was not a fairytale and would be more careful aboutinvesting projects . So for the institutional investors, it's very important tonot just invest a project, but also to provide services to the team so theycould actually create value. 林扬: 我非常认同,这也是DRC为什么呼吁和倡导在行业里形成标准和规范,尤其可以针对安全领域,形成一个有针对性的联盟。 I very much agree that this is why the DRC calls for and advocates the development of standards and norms in the industry, especially in the area of security. I agree, that's why DRC is trying to make standards, even a Global blockchain securityAlia. 黄连金: 包括有些公司你们也挺熟悉的,知道创宇、慢雾、降维,他们在这方面也在做一些贡献。 includes companies that you are familiar with and that know how to create, slow fog, downwidth, and that they are making some contributions in this regard. I think you are familiar with companies like Chuangyu, Manwu, Jiangwei right?They are contributing in this field too. 林扬: 那也是我们生态的共建者,我们已经把这样的安全审计公司邀请到生态里来,我们也想邀请您这样的专家,不仅仅是一起来参与讨论,下一步就是真正去摸索去形成一套标准、规范,去呼吁更多的项目,形成规范。 That's also our ecological co-builder, and we've invited such a safety audit company to the ecology, and we would like to invite experts like you, not just to come together and discuss, but to really work out a set of standards, norms, and call for more projects and norms. Yes,they are also contributors forosystem of DRC, we are inviting companies likethem and you to make a standard in the industry together. 黄连金: 这太需要了,很多项目也是需要这样的一个规范。我们做项目无论是监管也好,安全也好,我要做些什么?行业标准是什么?比如说钱包怎么管?上交易所之后要怎么做?或者从安全角度,要不要做签名钱包?什么时候要用到多签名?什么时候可以不用,这些都需要有一个规范。 That's too much to need, and a lot of projects need a norm. What do we do, whether it's regulated or safe, and what do I do? What are industry standards? What do you say about wallets? What do you do when you're on the exchange? Or do you want to make a signed wallet? When do you need multiple signatures? When you don't need one. Indeed,projects are calling for standards and regulations about how to handle wallets,what to do about exchanges, when to apply multi-signature etc. 林扬: 这些是实实在在落地的问题,大家谈一个理论很简单,钱包管理、多签名,什么场景用?哪些人可以有这些权限?怎么样去推选出来这些人,而避免被中心化集权控制,这是非常值得讨论的一些事情。包括未来有很多节点上的安全、共识层的安全,以及未来整个应用层的安全,Dapp的安全。此外行业有很多领域,我们可不可以共同邀请一些领域方面的专家。 These are real questions, and you can talk about a simple theory: wallet management, multiple signatures, what scenes? Who can have these privileges? How to select these people and avoid centralization, which is something very worth discussing, including security at many nodes in the future, security at the consensus level, security at the application level in the future, and Dapp's security. There are many areas in the industry where we can jointly invite experts in some fields. 呼吁行业更多的人加入到我们的探讨当中。在这个过程中,大家逐渐就会形成一些共识,我们的标准、规范应该包括哪些,应该由谁来建,应该怎么来建,这些都是大家可以共同探讨的问题。 For example the management ofmulti-signature wallets, how to avoid centralized control of the wallet? Andthe same problem of nodes? We need to gather the experts in the field.We should reach a consensus after in deepdiscussions. 黄连金: 安全必须突破第三方审计,我有这个建议,项目方自己要去做审查,自查还不够,要请第三方来查,这样肯定可以发现很多安全问题,这个项目方必须做。 I have a suggestion that the project has to go through the third-party audit itself, that it is not enough to go through it, that it be asked to look into it, and that there must be a lot of security problems that the project has to do. The audition of security mechanic in certain project is a must, not only by theproject team, but also should by the third-party experts. 林扬: DRC每季度都有代码审计专业公司出具审计报告,甚至是多方审计。 DRC produces quarterly audit reports, even multiple audits, by code audit professional firms. Yes,in DRC we got code auditions from several third-parties every season and everymajor stage to avoid mistakes from any party. 防范风险就是这样,一定在于防患于未然,但是已经发生的风险也一定要以此为戒,我们不能把发生在别人身上的风险事件当笑话一样,就像看一个新闻热点似的,再牛的技术极客,也会有考虑不到的方面。 That's what's about risk prevention, it's gotta be prevention, but it's gotta be prevention, and we can't make jokes about what's happening to other people, like watching a news flash, and there's something that can't be considered by the technocrats. We always say better safe than sorry and we must learn from the failures. Everyonecould make mistakes. 黄连金: 是,因为人不是上帝。 Yes,even god makes mistakes. 林扬: 这就是我们成立安全联盟的意图,让大家在遇到困难的时候能够找到专家,在大家有创新的时候能够得到更多的建议。 That's our intention to form a security alliance, so that you can find experts when you have difficulty, and you can get more advice when you have innovation. That's another reason why we are building a Alia , so everybody could get help whenproblems occur and advice is needed. 一个有币的经济体就和一个国家一样,是有铸币权的,所以任何行为都应该是有敬畏精神的。 A coin-bearing economy, like a country, has the right to cast a coin, so any act should have a sense of piety. When your project is issuing tokens, it's like running a nation and issuing fiats, youshould think carefully for every move. 黄连金: 有敬畏精神,这点讲的很好。在一个权限管控系统中,在安全线的工程人员必须对IT系统有敬畏精神,如果让人觉得安全可有可无那就麻烦了。 It's good to say that there's a sense of piety. In a power control system, engineers on the security line must be wary of the IT system, if they feel safe. Think carefully is where Huawei does well. The security staffs must be careful withthe system, if you don't take security seriously, you got problems. 林扬: 我觉得现在什么都可以不谈,但是不能没有安全。 I don't think we can talk about anything right now, but we can't be safe. Safety first. 黄连金: 这是我一直在讲的,很多先把系统实现,把币发出去,钱融进来,然后再搞安全,其中的网络风险非常大,有些项目瞬间就归零了。 That's what I've been talking about. A lot of the systems are realized, money is sent, money is blended in, security is secured, the network risks are very high, and some projects are instantaneous zero. What happens in many projects is that ICOand token issuance first, security second. 林扬: 我们接下来希望能够把访谈活动继续下去,然后不断地获得、融合更多的共识,我们可以定期组织一些行研,逐渐地形成更多的可以给行业推广的标准。 We hope we could have more discussions like this in the future. Then we could gathermore opinions, reach consensus and build more standards upon discussions. 黄连金: 这很好,这些值得去做,我们不去做,那美国可能就做起来了。 That's good. It's worth it. If we don't do it, the U.S. might do it. This is good, if we don't do it, Americans will do it before us. 林扬: DRC也愿意做这个倡议者、组织者和推动者,我们也愿意拿出基金会一部分的基金去发展这个生态。我们倡导的监管理念是一种陪同,而不是一种警察和小偷之间犯了错误来做处罚,而是说在这过程当中以渗透式监管、过程监管,甚至是主动监管,来辅导这些项目做的更规范。我们为什么不能通过区块链的精神、行业自律自治的方式来形成一种标准和规范呢?如果我们经过行业验证也得到大多数人的认可了,那它其实就是一种标准和规范。 DRC is willing to be a motivator of this action and put our resources and moneyinto it. We should accompany with projects rather than act like cops and treatprojects as criminal suspects. Projects need dripping regulations, progressiveregulations, even initiative regulations. In the spirit of blockchain,standards are formed when most of the people think the same. 黄连金: 这很难,但是需要坚持。 It's hard, but it needs to be. Hard to reach but someone need to do it. 林扬: 需要有人开始倡议,我相信有更多的人,更适合的人会把这件事情一起做下去。 I'm sure there are more people who will do it together. Someone initializes it and more partners will join us I believe. 黄连金: 很有意义。对区块链整体的发展,特别是在我们国内,真的能够走出一条路子出来,对区块链行业是很好的贡献,能促进行业良性的、健康的发展。 That means a lot for the development of blockchain industry, especially in China, toactually pave way for sustainable and healthy development of blockchainindustry. 林扬: 非常感谢黄总的分享,DRC是一个分布式监管科技平台,崇尚的是公开、透明与自治, Thank you very much for general sharing, and the DRC is a distributed regulatory science and technology platform dedicated to openness, transparency and autonomy, Thank you Mr. Huang, thanks for sharing.DRC is a distributed platform of regulation technologies. We believe in open, transparentself-regulation. 希望通过邀请更过的专业人士谈专业,大家来探讨行业如何更加规范、自律,建立起风险可控的、监管透明的、健康有序的区块链生态,来让更多的有识之士能够得到更多的、专业的支持和帮助。希望更多的有识之士加入到我们的联盟当中,来共建生态。 By inviting more professionals to talk about their profession, we want to discuss how industry can be more regulated, self-disciplined, risk-controlled, transparent, healthy and orderly block-chain ecology, so that more educated people can get more professional support and help. We want more knowledgeable people to join our alliance to build ecology together. We hope we could have more expertise to share their knowledge , together to find away for controllable and healthy development of blockchain eco-system, to helpanyone who needs our help, to have more allies in our eco-system. 黄连金: 区块链的发展需要监管的创新,DRC的做法是很有意义的尝试,通过建设区块链行业标准,以社区分布式协同的形式去为监管的创新做贡献。祝福DRC,谢谢。 The development of the Me too, I believe we need creative regulations in blockchain industry. That's whereDRC is doing a great job trying to build a community to make standards forregulations. I wish DRC good luck!
Very good, this problem also concerns usdoing the due diligence in different asset tokenization projects. We even addressed in the “LinYang’s 10 questions on asset tokenization” where we discussed with severalexperts the authenticity and ownership of the assets, and value assessment.
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